Player Building Help/Discussion

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Mother Ducks
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Player Building Help/Discussion

Post by Mother Ducks » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:06 pm

So I have taken a break for a couple of months after a long, unsuccessful fight to try and build something [help build I think]; it was a remodeling of the theater in Gaald. I am returning today to gain clarity after I've calmed down and my emotions have faded some.

In 2017, I spent a large portion of my Fall and Winter pouring hours and money into trying to build something after it was quoted. The quote was 19,500 platinum (iirc). So I started to gather. And gather, and rp, and meet some interesting npcs and made IC and OOC friends and gather and roleplay. My character's purpose was to make this theater, everyone who played knew it. During such, I was given the opportunity to worship and represent a deity, and was fortunate enough to join a house when offered. But I never swayed from the theater as my main goal. It was my devotion peace to my deity and my lover, it was significant in my application to my house. I kept my head up and kept trying.

I was even told before I made the character that it'd even possibly get a discount because it was under consideration anyway if I went for it because it was needed. So I set out to work making the character and making it my goal for about 4 months straight.

About 1/3 the way through gathering the required platinum (~6-7k platinum), I was beginning to see public negative comments (not even directly at me but in Discord) of raising the money, which I was unaware I was not actually supposed to do because no one told me and it's not stated on the help build, and was supposedly inching closer to actually not having the building made, which it still hasn't. How is one supposed to know that if you state it's required in the help? I feel like if someone talked to me privately about it, I would have a better idea of the expectations of staff, rather than be judged and then publicly burned about it when trying because one 'should know' this already.

So I pursued different methods and roleplayed with others and NPCs and tried and commented and wrote mails and asked OOC and OOG about it's progress and ways to achieve this dream. I got little feedback of what to do. And I didn't get any guidance on how to move forward. At a loss for making money and stagnating roleplay, my login time became less and less as no one seemed to want to talk to me about it IC or OOC. I was quite mad right before I stopped logging in because I just feel like I focused on one thing, building something with my own money and energy, and was told I could do it and was on the right path, then feel like I wasted my time doing all the right things and was told it won't be made.

I invested a lot in this character. Real time, real hours. Real struggles. Real devotion. To the game, the wiki, the players. The most ever by far of any character. I made this character for this purpose. I cried and laughed IRL because of the great times I had. I really did enjoy my class and my abilities, but in the end, I was left with the feeling that building player buildings is not truthful in the file. It's not that easy. It's not even realistic it feels like. And the whole way I was egged on, and then it just faded from everyone's thoughts. If it takes 4-6 months to build 5 rooms, then why? One person commented that they could make it in a couple hours making me feel like a) it was cheap and b) that it was being dangled in front of me. It was infuriating and now I have a bruise on the way I see Avendar and I need you to help me understand why and also want to help the next player who goes after building something. Should people not be wanting to build things? I think there needs to be a clearer guideline for building. I can't know what people are thinking, I can not live up to expectations set that I don't even know.

I'd like the others to know my story and I don't mean to call out people specifically, but they're the ones with the answers and have yet to talk to me about it much. I feel like it's just been a big let down. If it's too hard to make, I'm not asking for crazy progs, but maybe I don't see what the staff was considering. I'm just asking for 5 box rooms and some nice descriptions. The play is already there (which if you haven't seen the play, go, I think it's fun and a great little gem that needs polishing).

If it's my hours in game, how many do you have to have? Does that include the countless hours I spent making specific artwork and songs for everyone's characters as well?

If it's my roleplay and my roleplay is bad, would that deter you from helping me build it? I would rather hear "You're a bad roleplayer, here are some helpful tips" than get a cold shoulder.

Did I not donate enough money? I donated on Patreon for a bit and to Avendar from time to time but things have gotten tight, but when I did I was told I could have things written, and that could add to my theater, but no one even said thanks for donating or acknowledged it.

I just feel like I did everything right, and was denied the one thing I wanted over time, and the feelings of resentment I have now are ones I don't wish upon other players, newer or older, and want them to know what they're getting into, and to share my experience trying to build one small piece of a vast game so I have something to show for when I am gone.
Last edited by Mother Ducks on Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neongrey
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Post by neongrey » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:11 pm

Mother Ducks wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:06 pm
I was even told before I made the character that it'd even possibly get a discount because it was under consideration anyway if I went for it because it was needed. So I set out to work making the character and making it my goal for about 4 months straight.
I don't know who told you this. They should not have-- we in fact really strongly don't want people attempting to build things that are a goad to fix perceived flawed/outdated/broken content. We might go above and beyond in terms of work for a novel or interesting concept (which is why you got a quote at all rather than a flat 'no'), but IC costs are huge for a reason because creation time is at a premium. The 19,500 platinum quote was a lowball for what you were asking-- you were shown during the process another PC-created business and I believe told outright that it cost 10,000 platinum. For two rooms, with a comparative amount of work done on them as what you were requesting. I cannot stress enough that what you got was a discount. You were asking for a tremendous amount of time and effort.
About 1/3 the way through gathering the required platinum (~6-7k platinum), I was beginning to see public negative comments (not even directly at me but in Discord) of raising the money, which I was unaware I was not actually supposed to do because no one told me and it's not stated on the help build, and was supposedly inching closer to actually not having the building made, which it still hasn't. How is one supposed to know that if you state it's required in the help? I feel like if someone talked to me privately about it, I would have a better idea of the expectations of staff, rather than be judged and then publicly burned about it when trying because one 'should know' this already.
The required platinum was 19,500.

Help building explicitly states that characters wanting to create a business will need to find financial backers. A theatre is absolutely a business. Your quote offered to put you in contact with financial backers. Your first financial backer told you, explicitly, in solid numbers, how much they were backing you for, that you would need to front about 8000 liquid platinum on your own part and offered to put you in contact with another backer who would be able to assist with the remainder. We expedited construction of one of the Great Houses in large part to create this remaining backer. You were absolutely kept informed.

It has not been built because it was never paid for. Yes, that's a massive amount of money to have to get-- Other players have solicited donations from IC friends, you had it ICly suggested to you that what you were asking was above and beyond what was reasonable.

The helpfile explicitly states to look at extant shops and buildings in game as a guideline as to what's appropriate. This doesn't just mean player-established houses/shops (since we try to make those invisible)-- there's a lot of things out there to use as cues.
So I pursued different methods and roleplayed with others and NPCs and tried and commented and wrote mails and asked OOC and OOG about it's progress and ways to achieve this dream. I got little feedback of what to do. And I didn't get any guidance on how to move forward. At a loss for making money and stagnating roleplay, my login time became less and less as no one seemed to want to talk to me about it IC or OOC. I was quite mad right before I stopped logging in because I just feel like I focused on one thing, building something with my own money and energy, and was told I could do it and was on the right path, then feel like I wasted my time doing all the right things and was told it won't be made.
We were waiting on you, pretty much. By the time we were ready to hook you up with the second backer, you had about half the cash you were told to get and then your character never showed up at a time we could hook up.
I invested a lot in this character. Real time, real hours. Real struggles. Real devotion. To the game, the wiki, the players. The most ever by far of any character. I made this character for this purpose. I cried and laughed IRL because of the great times I had. I really did enjoy my class and my abilities, but in the end, I was left with the feeling that building player buildings is not truthful in the file. It's not that easy. It's not even realistic it feels like. And the whole way I was egged on, and then it just faded from everyone's thoughts. If it takes 4-6 months to build 5 rooms, then why? One person commented that they could make it in a couple hours making me feel like a) it was cheap and b) that it was being dangled in front of me. It was infuriating and now I have a bruise on the way I see Avendar and I need you to help me understand why and also want to help the next player who goes after building something. Should people not be wanting to build things? I think there needs to be a clearer guideline for building. I can't know what people are thinking, I can not live up to expectations set that I don't even know.
Your request would have called for 24-48 hours of work time. Not real time, dedicated work time. 5 rooms to completion is not trivial. Especially not to the specification you had presented. Realize that what you were asking would have comprised a full 5% of the area at the time of your request-- not 5% of used space in the area. 5% of maximum space. 5 rooms is the size of every scholar guild in Var Bandor. 5 rooms is bigger than every shop in the game.
I'd like the others to know my story and I don't mean to call out people specifically, but they're the ones with the answers and have yet to talk to me about it much. I feel like it's just been a big let down. If it's too hard to make, I'm not asking for crazy progs, but maybe I don't see what the staff was considering. I'm just asking for 5 box rooms and some nice descriptions. The play is already there (which if you haven't seen the play, go, I think it's fun and a great little gem that needs polishing).
No, your request required extensive progging (both new and overhaul work), a lot of items created (in an area that literally doesn't have capacity to add more items), and probably a couple thousand words total of desc work in various capacities.

I don't know how you came under the impression that this was a trivial request-- everything you were told, in character and out, was that it was extremely non-trivial. The IC price was commensurate with both the fact that you were asking for a huge amount of work but that it was likely to be interesting.
If it's my hours in game, how many do you have to have? Does that include the countless hours I spent making specific artwork and songs for everyone's characters as well?
You didn't pay for your part of it, ICly.
If it's my roleplay and my roleplay is bad, would that deter you from helping me build it? I would rather hear "You're a bad roleplayer, here are some helpful tips" than get a cold shoulder.
You were given a specific amount of platinum that you personally would need to provide and did not pay it.
Did I not donate enough money? I donated on Patreon for a bit and to Avendar from time to time but things have gotten tight, but when I did I was told I could have things written, and that could add to my theater, but no one even said thanks for donating or acknowledged it.
The $10 Patreon reward is a short story or something similar, not game content. We are willing, with permission, to place work created as part of that reward in game if it's appropriate, but that's hugely different from what you're suggesting and we do not, under any circumstances, build for money. We regularly send out reminders to patrons that they should reach out about this or other rewards-- you have not done so, and if you had requested that your reward be fulfilled as part of this, the request would have been declined. You cannot purchase game content.
I just feel like I did everything right, and was denied the one thing I wanted over time, and the feelings of resentment I have now are ones I don't wish upon other players, newer or older, and want them to know what they're getting into, and to share my experience trying to build one small piece of a vast game so I have something to show for when I am gone.
Your character has 5,974 platnum banked and never paid for their stake.
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Mother Ducks
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Post by Mother Ducks » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:37 am

I don't know who told you this. They should not have-- we in fact really strongly don't want people attempting to build things that are a goad to fix perceived flawed/outdated/broken content. We might go above and beyond in terms of work for a novel or interesting concept (which is why you got a quote at all rather than a flat 'no'), but IC costs are huge for a reason because creation time is at a premium. The 19,500 platinum quote was a lowball for what you were asking-- you were shown during the process another PC-created business and I believe told outright that it cost 10,000 platinum. For two rooms, with a comparative amount of work done on them as what you were requesting. I cannot stress enough that what you got was a discount. You were asking for a tremendous amount of time and effort.
I understand time is an investment, but my time is too, that's why I was wondering about this. I thought that the tower for the Champions was only 10,000, maybe I mixed them up with the Sea Spire..? As well, I didn't just make it up, it is just what has happened to me and this is my experience from what I've been told.

About 1/3 the way through gathering the required platinum (~6-7k platinum), I was beginning to see public negative comments (not even directly at me but in Discord) of raising the money, which I was unaware I was not actually supposed to do because no one told me and it's not stated on the help build, and was supposedly inching closer to actually not having the building made, which it still hasn't. How is one supposed to know that if you state it's required in the help? I feel like if someone talked to me privately about it, I would have a better idea of the expectations of staff, rather than be judged and then publicly burned about it when trying because one 'should know' this already.
Help building explicitly states that characters wanting to create a business will need to find financial backers. A theatre is absolutely a business. Your quote offered to put you in contact with financial backers. Your first financial backer told you, explicitly, in solid numbers, how much they were backing you for, that you would need to front about 8000 liquid platinum on your own part and offered to put you in contact with another backer who would be able to assist with the remainder. We expedited construction of one of the Great Houses in large part to create this remaining backer. You were absolutely kept informed.

It has not been built because it was never paid for. Yes, that's a massive amount of money to have to get-- Other players have solicited donations from IC friends, you had it ICly suggested to you that what you were asking was above and beyond what was reasonable.
I did not know about the Great House being built one bit. And as for the initial 8,000, you are the one who dogged it in Discord, dissuading me from trying to gain anymore money instilling fear of it not being made and relying on imm interaction and notes. Maybe next time someone has a dream and gets halfway through it, you don't down it in Discord in front of others, but rather connect with that person and try to help their dream. Because when the owner dogs what I'm doing in front of others, how am I supposed to feel? Many of my mails, interactions, thoughts were never even responded to and plot lines left to dry. I had an npc walk up to me one day and just give me 2,500 platinum and leave after weeks of radio silence. Is that the avenue I had to wait for? Someone to just give platinum to me all of a sudden? How do I not make platinum myself, but leave it in the hands of the immortals who drop the ball? That is the reason I am asking this, I put in the core work with the expectation that I was following all the guidelines set and was told all the while that the theater is a done deal.

It feels like a double standard. One one end: It's my fault because I didn't come up with the cash and needed to raise more, and on the other: It's my fault because I tried to raise the money and should have waited for someone to feel like just appearing and giving me money after constant roleplay and messaging with long weeks of silence. In no way, it feels like, you are saying that this is anyone's fault but mine.
So I pursued different methods and roleplayed with others and NPCs and tried and commented and wrote mails and asked OOC and OOG about it's progress and ways to achieve this dream. I got little feedback of what to do. And I didn't get any guidance on how to move forward. At a loss for making money and stagnating roleplay, my login time became less and less as no one seemed to want to talk to me about it IC or OOC. I was quite mad right before I stopped logging in because I just feel like I focused on one thing, building something with my own money and energy, and was told I could do it and was on the right path, then feel like I wasted my time doing all the right things and was told it won't be made.
We were waiting on you, pretty much. By the time we were ready to hook you up with the second backer, you had about half the cash you were told to get and then your character never showed up at a time we could hook up.
Well I feel like I was waiting a lot on progress. Like I said, I'd have radio silence for weeks at a time. If this would be still possible, then I would scoop up my remaining years and finish it strong if we can work together. I'm open to guidance, but I'm not getting recognition for my situation.
I invested a lot in this character. Real time, real hours. Real struggles. Real devotion. To the game, the wiki, the players. The most ever by far of any character. I made this character for this purpose. I cried and laughed IRL because of the great times I had. I really did enjoy my class and my abilities, but in the end, I was left with the feeling that building player buildings is not truthful in the file. It's not that easy. It's not even realistic it feels like. And the whole way I was egged on, and then it just faded from everyone's thoughts. If it takes 4-6 months to build 5 rooms, then why? One person commented that they could make it in a couple hours making me feel like a) it was cheap and b) that it was being dangled in front of me. It was infuriating and now I have a bruise on the way I see Avendar and I need you to help me understand why and also want to help the next player who goes after building something. Should people not be wanting to build things? I think there needs to be a clearer guideline for building. I can't know what people are thinking, I can not live up to expectations set that I don't even know.
Your request would have called for 24-48 hours of work time. Not real time, dedicated work time. 5 rooms to completion is not trivial. Especially not to the specification you had presented. Realize that what you were asking would have comprised a full 5% of the area at the time of your request-- not 5% of used space in the area. 5% of maximum space. 5 rooms is the size of every scholar guild in Var Bandor. 5 rooms is bigger than every shop in the game.

No, your request required extensive progging (both new and overhaul work), a lot of items created (in an area that literally doesn't have capacity to add more items), and probably a couple thousand words total of desc work in various capacities.
I don't know how you came under the impression that this was a trivial request-- everything you were told, in character and out, was that it was extremely non-trivial. The IC price was commensurate with both the fact that you were asking for a huge amount of work but that it was likely to be interesting.
For this, I realize that my request was large but told it was doable. I also am not responsible for what people's time quotes are either. If I hear a few hours, then to me it's a few hours. If I was also approached at all and told "We really can't/don't want to spend all this time to make your thing" or "we don't have the capacity for items" then I would've catered it to be doable and worked with the builder, of course. You or others could have at any time, like I said, how can I live up to these expectations that people have set for me to just know all these things.
I just feel like I did everything right, and was denied the one thing I wanted over time, and the feelings of resentment I have now are ones I don't wish upon other players, newer or older, and want them to know what they're getting into, and to share my experience trying to build one small piece of a vast game so I have something to show for when I am gone.
Your character has 5,974 platnum banked and never paid for their stake.
I get the money part, it's not about the money specifically if you read the original post. It's about me working hard towards something, roleplaying and trying, and how I feel like the situation was handled over my four month period. These are my feelings and experiences.

I'm not trying to say I had the money, I know my balance. I am not trying to say I thought it was an easy task, I know building is building, I've built before. I'm just trying to state that I've had smoke up my butt half the time that the theater is good, it's a good idea, it won't be that hard, and that it's a done deal and interaction, interest, and negative feedback started to come towards the end of it and all of a sudden it got difficult. That's not me making things up or being offensive, it's the fact.

- You can defend it all day, but I think you're missing compassion towards someone who has spent years playing this game and finally tried to make something to last for the betterment of the game and players all you can see is the need to be defensive rather than trying to alleviate the situation or progress a long time player in their quest for building something. The whole time, I don't feel like you've been supportive at all. Take it easy on me, it's not personal.

If you can't acknowledge that then you are missing the point. If you're willing to help, then let me know what I can do if this is still a reality. This is also aimed at the other staff who have been working with me if they would like to pipe in, not just you, and I hope you know this is not just aimed at you at all as you weren't the one specifically talking to me, it is just that I have never had a strong connection with a game and the base and a project like this where I woke up on the regular and thought about it daily and I want to alleviate these awful feeling I am having.
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Post by Steve the Black » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:17 pm

I have to admit, I don't get it. You were told you could get something built if you came up with the money. You never came up with the money, and the thing never got built.

Where is your grievance there?
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neongrey
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Post by neongrey » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:02 pm

I understand time is an investment, but my time is too, that's why I was wondering about this. I thought that the tower for the Champions was only 10,000, maybe I mixed them up with the Sea Spire..? As well, I didn't just make it up, it is just what has happened to me and this is my experience from what I've been told.
You were shown the Sea Spire in character. It cost ten thousand platinum for a comparable amount of per-room work. It took months.

I did not know about the Great House being built one bit. And as for the initial 8,000, you are the one who dogged it in Discord, dissuading me from trying to gain anymore money instilling fear of it not being made and relying on imm interaction and notes. Maybe next time someone has a dream and gets halfway through it, you don't down it in Discord in front of others, but rather connect with that person and try to help their dream. Because when the owner dogs what I'm doing in front of others, how am I supposed to feel? Many of my mails, interactions, thoughts were never even responded to and plot lines left to dry. I had an npc walk up to me one day and just give me 2,500 platinum and leave after weeks of radio silence. Is that the avenue I had to wait for? Someone to just give platinum to me all of a sudden? How do I not make platinum myself, but leave it in the hands of the immortals who drop the ball? That is the reason I am asking this, I put in the core work with the expectation that I was following all the guidelines set and was told all the while that the theater is a done deal.
The 8,000 was not an 'initial'. You received the 19,500 quote and were chatting about having to do huge amounts of grinding. You were told, no, you should not need to grind the whole thing yourself-- this would have been the third time you were told this, after the helpfile, and then the quote. Your first interaction told you to acquire 2000 platinum to have further discussion. You acheived that. Your subsequent interaction told you that you would need to have 8000 platinum liquid yourself. These interactions have been logged.

The person who handed you a large sum of cash themself has been disciplined, fwiw-- but there was no need to punish you as a result of that.
Well I feel like I was waiting a lot on progress. Like I said, I'd have radio silence for weeks at a time. If this would be still possible, then I would scoop up my remaining years and finish it strong if we can work together. I'm open to guidance, but I'm not getting recognition for my situation.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you were told to do something and you didn't do it. You were given clear, numerical goals, at every step of the way. You were told what you would be responsible for and what to expect staff would cover you for. All of this is in logs.
For this, I realize that my request was large but told it was doable. I also am not responsible for what people's time quotes are either. If I hear a few hours, then to me it's a few hours. If I was also approached at all and told "We really can't/don't want to spend all this time to make your thing" or "we don't have the capacity for items" then I would've catered it to be doable and worked with the builder, of course. You or others could have at any time, like I said, how can I live up to these expectations that people have set for me to just know all these things.
Whatever someone who, to be honest, was too inexperienced to understand the magnitude of the request told you before we had the final request in hand is unfortunate, and I apologize for their confusion. But once we had the formal request in hand, we were explicit.
I get the money part, it's not about the money specifically if you read the original post. It's about me working hard towards something, roleplaying and trying, and how I feel like the situation was handled over my four month period. These are my feelings and experiences.

I'm not trying to say I had the money, I know my balance. I am not trying to say I thought it was an easy task, I know building is building, I've built before. I'm just trying to state that I've had smoke up my butt half the time that the theater is good, it's a good idea, it won't be that hard, and that it's a done deal and interaction, interest, and negative feedback started to come towards the end of it and all of a sudden it got difficult. That's not me making things up or being offensive, it's the fact.
It is specifically the money part because that is what would have been needed to start work. Your character pays, building happens. Not before. Nothing starts before the platinum changes hands.
- You can defend it all day, but I think you're missing compassion towards someone who has spent years playing this game and finally tried to make something to last for the betterment of the game and players all you can see is the need to be defensive rather than trying to alleviate the situation or progress a long time player in their quest for building something. The whole time, I don't feel like you've been supportive at all. Take it easy on me, it's not personal.

If you can't acknowledge that then you are missing the point. If you're willing to help, then let me know what I can do if this is still a reality. This is also aimed at the other staff who have been working with me if they would like to pipe in, not just you, and I hope you know this is not just aimed at you at all as you weren't the one specifically talking to me, it is just that I have never had a strong connection with a game and the base and a project like this where I woke up on the regular and thought about it daily and I want to alleviate these awful feeling I am having.
The character still exists, so far as I know. The request is still open-- certain surrounding circumstances may have changed, which can be discussed in a more appropriate venue if there is an intention of fulfilling your part of it. But right now, yes, it is about the money: it must be paid in order for anything to be done. If your condition on returning is that this be done, then I'm sorry, no, nothing I say is going to make you feel better.
Last edited by neongrey on Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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